[Page 1068]
INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR THE SETTLEMENT OF
INVESTMENT DISPUTES
|
In the Matter of Arbitration Between: GABRIEL RESOURCES LTD. and GABRIEL Claimants, and ROMANIA, Respondent. |
Case No. |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Volume 4
Thursday, December 5, 2019
The World Bank Group
1225 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
C Building
Conference Room C3-150
Washington, D.C.
The hearing in the above-entitled matter came on at 9:00 a.m. before:
PROF. PIERRE TERCIER, President of the Tribunal
DR. HORACIO A. GRIGERA NAÓN, Co-Arbitrator
PROF. ZACHARY DOUGLAS, Co-Arbitrator
[Page 1069]
ALSO PRESENT:
MS. SARA MARZAL YETANO
Secretary to the TribunalMS. MARIA ATHANASIOU
Tribunal AssistantCourt Reporters:
MR. DAVID A. KASDAN
MS. MARGIE DAUSTER
Registered Diplomate Reporters (RDR)
Certified Realtime Reporters (CRR)
B&B Reporters
529 14th Street, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20003
[email protected]Interpreters:
MS. MARLIENA FILIP
MS. ALEXANDRA IULIANA MLADEN
MS. ALEXANDRA DOBRIN
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ALSO PRESENT:
Attending on behalf of the Claimants:
MS. ABBY COHEN SMUTNY
MR. DARRYL LEW
MR. BRODY GREENWALD
MR. PETR POLÁŠEK
MR. HANSEL PHAM
MR. FRANCIS VASQUEZ JR.
MR. ANDREI POPOVICI
MS. GABRIELA LOPEZ
MR. FRANCIS LEVESQUE
MR. WILLIAM STROUPE
MS. NATALIA TCHOUKLEVA
MR. JACOB TRUMM
MS. DARA BROWN
MS. ALYSSA HOWARD
White & Case, LLP
701 13th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
United States of AmericaMR. FLORENTIN TUCA
MS. IDA-LEVANA ZIGMUND
MS. ANCA DIANA PUSCASU
MS. OANA-MIRUNA URECHE
MS. RUXANDRA NIŢĂ
MS. ANGELICA-IULIANA HOGAŞ-PINTILIE
MR. CORNEL POPA (via video for Prof. Birsan)
Ţuca Zbârcea & Asociaţii
Sos. Nicolae Titulescu nr. 4-8
America House, Aripa de Vest, et. 8
Sector 1, 011141, Bucuresti
Romania
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APPEARANCES:
Represent Gabriel Resources Ltd.:
MR. SIMON LUSTY
MR. RICHARD BROWN
MR. DANIEL KOCHAV
MS. RUTH TEITELBAUM
Representing Roşia Montană Gold Corporation:
MR. MIHAI BOTEA
[Page 1072]
APPEARANCES: (Continued)
Attending on behalf of the Respondent:
DR. VEIJO HEISKANEN
MR. MATTHIAS SCHERER
MS. NORADÈLE RADJAI
MS. LORRAINE de GERMINY
MR. CHRISTOPHE GUIBERT de BRUET
MR. DAVID BONIFACIO
MR. BAPTISTE RIGAUDEAU
MS. EMILIE MCCONAUGHEY
MS. NICOLE CHALIKOPOULOU
MR. PATRICIO GRANE
MS. STELA NEGRAN
Lalive
35, rue de la Mairie
CH - 1207 Geneva
SwitzerlandDR. CRENGUŢA LEAUA
MS. ANDREEA SIMULESCU
MS. MIHAELA MARAVELA
MS. LILIANA DEACONESCU
MS. ANDREEA PIŢURCĂ
MS. ANDRA SOARE FILATOV
Leaua Damcali Deaconu Paunescu
10 Zborului Street, sector 3
030595, Bucharest
Romania
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PAGE
PRELIMINARY MATTERS...................................1074
WITNESSES:
HOREA AVRAM
Direct examination by Mr. Vasquez...................1082
Cross-examination by Ms. de Germiny...............1097
Redirect examination by Mr. Vasquez...............1270
Questions from the Tribunal.......................1293
ADRIAN GLIGOR
Cross-examination by Mr. Guibert de Bruet.........1303
ELENA LORINCZ
Direct examination by Mr. Pham....................1351
Cross-examination by Ms. de Germiny...............1366
[Page 1074]
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My pleasure to open, my honor to open the fourth day in the arbitration, ICSID Arbitration procedure 15/31 between Gabriel Resources Limited and Gabriel Resources (Jersey) Limited versus Romania.
I hope you had a pleasant evening, and again and again and again, I express the wish that we'll have an interesting, constructive day.
I would like to start with a few procedural points.
First, I would like to thank our Court Reporters, of course, for having submitted the Transcript, yesterday's Transcript.
Secondly, you have received yesterday evening the Decision taken by the Arbitral Tribunal concerning the attendees during the examination of Mr. Avram, and you have a comment to that on Claimants' side?
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: We do not have a comment.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: On Respondent's side?
DR. HEISKANEN: The Respondent takes note of the Tribunal's decision.
[Page 1075]
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you.
The next point, we have also received a report for the time that has been--already been used. I'd like to thank our Secretary for that.
We have received this morning a moment ago from Respondent a new Annex A to the Procedural 26.
Could you make a comment to us?
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes, Mr. President. This was for purposes of facilitating the planning. The Respondent feels that we are now in a position to give an indication or provide an indicative timetable of the examination of the remaining witnesses. This was for purposes of facilitating the Tribunal's planning and also to give better transparency for counsel for the Claimants.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you.
Comment on your side?
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: We have not had time to fully appreciate it. We'll take a look at it this morning, and if we have any comments, we'll let you know.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good.
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Next point, based on that and after having received your comment, I would like to ask our Secretary to prepare a new timetable updated in order to see how it will look like. And, for today, I think we will have difficulties to cover all the examination that were envisaged, but let's first go ahead, and when we cross the river, we'll see it.
Have you another point at this juncture?
Claimant?
MR. VASQUEZ: No. We're ready to proceed.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: On your side?
DR. HEISKANEN: The only outstanding item was the Respondent's comments on the Commission's letter. We can confirm that the Respondent has no objection to the Commission's request.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good, so, you confirm the letter.
Fine. So, if there is no further point, we may start with the examination of Mr. Horea Avram.
HOREA AVRAM, CLAIMANTS' WITNESS, CALLED
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning, Mr. Avram. I start with a--
[Page 1077]
MR. VASQUEZ: We're having a problem with the microphone for Mr. Avram.
(Pause.)
THE WITNESS: Good morning.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning.
I would like first to ask you in which language do you wish to testify?
THE WITNESS: I will try my best to testify in English. If I will encounter any issues, I will ask permission to listen to the Romanian translation.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. It will, indeed. First we are happy that you are ready to testify in English; and, secondly, of course, if you have the slightest problem, you have the right to ask for assistance. Good.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: So, you will be heard this morning as a witness. First I would like not to apologize, but to argue that we are aware of the fact that yesterday you had to wait, but you know it is difficult for the Tribunal to exactly know how long it would be. I would like to thank you for having been
[Page 1078]
so patient.
Secondly, I would like to introduce you shortly the members of the Arbitral Tribunal: On my left-hand side is Professor Horatio Grigera Naón; on my right side, Professor Zachary Douglas. My name is Pierre Tercier. I'm now the President of the Tribunal. I replaced Ms. Teresa Cheng. On the far right, we have Secretary of the Tribunal and the Assistant of the Arbitral Tribunal. I think I do not need to introduce who are on both sides of the side.
First, may I invite you to read the statement that is in front of you.
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare upon my honor and conscience that I shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Thank you.
You have prepared for this procedure two Witness Statements, the first dated the 30th of June 17, 2017, and the second on the 31st of October 2018.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: All right.
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THE WITNESS: Yes.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Have you these two documents in front of you?
THE WITNESS: I do.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. Can you confirm the content of this document, or do you wish to make some amendments?
THE WITNESS: I would like to make an amendment--
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good.
THE WITNESS: --to one of my exhibits.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yeah, please.
THE WITNESS: In one of my exhibits, there is a wrong reference to C-575; should be referenced R-215.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. We'll take a note of it. Fine.
Now, you know how the procedure will be conducted. I will ask you one or two questions. Then there will be a redirect then a cross--direct, sorry, a cross, and a redirect. You know the procedure.
And you also know that the Arbitral Tribunal
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has the right to ask questions whenever we feel it's useful and necessary to do so.
Another point is that we have a transcript, so avoid overlapping with the speaker that is speaking, and we will have no problem with interpretation, so I don't need to be. Second rule.
By the way, I'm sorry, but I've forgotten to ask is whether there are new attendees in the room.
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: On Claimants' side today, we have Professor Mihai with us. Others are the same.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. And on your side?
DR. HEISKANEN: No new attendees on the Respondent's side.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Very well. Good. Now we can proceed.
MR. GREENWALD: Mr. Tănase is also with us at the table.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Sorry? Oh, yes. Okay. Hello again, Mr. Tănase.
Mr. Avram, can you, even if it's already in your Witness Statement, in a few words, tell us what was your position during the time of the difficulties
[Page 1081]
that I guess now are before this Tribunal, and what is now your position.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
I joined the Project in March 2003 as the Environmental Engineer.
In 2005, I've been appointed Environmental Manager mostly being responsible for environmental permitting.
In 2008, I'd been appointed VP for Environmental Affairs.
Since 2014, I'm the Environmental Director with the Company.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. What has been your education?
THE WITNESS: My background is environmental engineering.
I graduated Mining University in environmental science.
I hold a master in eco-management and also an executive MBA.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. And another question: Could you in a few words tell us what has
[Page 1082]
been the process for the preparation for your Witness Statements.
THE WITNESS: I've been working with the counsel to prepare my Witness Statement providing with information. I have been helped with preparing the statement--my English is not perfect.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good.
There are no questions from my co-Arbitrators. I give the floor to Mr. Vasquez.
MR. VASQUEZ: Okay. I think we have binders to hand out.
(Pause.)
MR. VASQUEZ: The Tribunal will appreciate it's a very thin binder.
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(Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., the Hearing was
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[Page 1251]
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Ladies and gentlemen,
good afternoon.
Let's begin.
First, I think sometimes I misspell the names
of people. Former President was Teresa Cheng, and I
would like to apologize my distance.
Secondly, you left the room so urgently, I
didn't have the time to recall you that you were under
testimony. What I did in the corridor when I saw you
in the presence of our Secretary, so that was just for
the record, so that we have also this point.
And the third point I would like to know from
Claimant if you had an opportunity to have a look at
the new proposal or the proposal made by Respondent.
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: Yes. Claimant has no
comments on Respondent's estimated timing, so it's
perfectly agreeable in terms of time allocations.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Very good. This has, of
course, an implication on now the organization of the
Hearing, and if I may ask our Secretary to prepare a
new draft, this certainly implies that some of the
[Page 1252]
witnesses that were--should have appeared this week
shall spend the weekend in Washington.
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(Witness steps down.)
PRESIDENT TERCIER: We will now proceed with the next, with Mr. Gligor.
I suggest nevertheless that we introduce a break, and then we can have it in one step, two hours, according to the new calendar.
MR. VASQUEZ: Agree.
(Brief recess.)
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Claimants are ready? Mr. Pham, are you ready?
MR. PHAM: Yes, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I will see. Court reporter ready? Are the interpreters ready?
THE INTERPRETER: We are ready.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. So, we may proceed.
ADRIAN GLIGOR, CLAIMANTS' WITNESS, CALLED
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good afternoon, Mr. Gligor. In your Witness Statement at Paragraph 7, you write: "If anticipated--if called"--no. "I anticipate that if called to provide oral testimony, I might prefer to do so in Romanian."
[Page 1298]
So, now you've confirmed that you would like to--prefer to testify in Romanian?
THE WITNESS: I do.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I recall that you are here, called as a witness before this Tribunal. I would like to introduce to you the Members of the Tribunal. On my left-hand side, Professor Horacio Grigera Naón. On my right-hand side, Professor Zachary Douglas. My name is Pierre Tercier. And we have our Secretary and the Assistant to the Tribunal.
You will be heard as a witness. As such, may I invite you to read the Declaration that you should find on your desk--table.
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare, upon my honor and conscience, that I shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. You have prepared for this Proceeding two Witness Statements, the first dated 30th of June 2017, and the second 30th of October 2018.
(Comments off microphone.)
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Shall I repeat?
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You have prepared for this Proceeding two Witness Statements, the first dated 30th of June 2017, and the second the 30th of October 2018.
You have these documents in front of you?
THE WITNESS: I do.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Can you confirm the content of these documents, or do you wish to make amendments?
THE WITNESS: I confirm the content of the documents, and I do not wish to make any amendments. Thank you.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you.
You know how this procedure will be conducted. We will first ask you one or two questions, then there will be a short direct, then the cross-examination, and then the redirect. And the Arbitral Tribunal has a right, at any time, to ask a question to you.
Is it clear?
THE WITNESS: It is.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Two rules. The first, we have court reporters behind you making a
[Page 1300]
transcript. It is important for the clarity of the transcript that you do not speak or interrupt the speaker that speaks before you. That's point number one.
Point number two for everybody, before answering--or before asking your question, just wait a few seconds so that the interpreters may finish their interpretation.
Is it clear?
THE WITNESS: It is clear.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: We have seen in your Witness Statement some element concerning your role, but I would like you to introduce yourself shortly, explaining what was your position, what has been your position, what was your position at the time the evidence occurred, and what is now your position.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
My name is Adrian Gligor. And I am an archeologist by profession. I am registered in the Register of Archaeologists of Romania, which is held by the Ministry of Culture.
I worked at the National Union Museum of Alba
[Page 1301]
Iulia at the beginning of my career, in particular, starting with 1997. Between 2000 and 2001 I worked as an archeologist of the National Union Museum, and in this capacity I participated in the research conducted at Rosia Montana.
Since 2002, I worked as a consultant for cultural heritage and patrimony matters for Rosia Montana. And as of 2005, I became a direct employee of RMGC.
I hold the position of Director of the Cultural Patrimony Department as of 2008. Afterwards, I was appointed Vice President for Cultural Heritage and Sustainable Development matters. And in 2014, I became Director for Patrimony of a department which I represent myself.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So, you worked with RMGC from 2002--no--from 2005 until 2008; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: I continue to work with RMGC. I'm still an employee of RMGC.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Okay. Good. Fine.
[Page 1302]
Second question. If you could, in two words, tell us what has been the process that has been followed for the preparation of your Witness Statements.
THE WITNESS: My Witness Statements were developed based on my dialogue with the counsels from Romania, from Tuca Zbarcea & Asociatii, and the counsels from White & Case. Based on this dialogue, we came up with various drafts of my Witness Statements. And when I was satisfied with the content of the Statements, I concluded the Statement and signed it. This was valid for both Statements.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I assume you know sufficient English to check the English version, and you have confirmed it, and you confirm also that the English version corresponds to your testimony?
THE WITNESS: I understand sufficient English to understand written content, but it's not that good so as to follow a discussion at this level here. But I understood the content of my Statements, and I fully endorse these Statements because they are my Statements.
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much.
Please, Mr. Pham, you have the floor.
MR. PHAM: The Tribunal has asked my questions. I turn it to the Respondent.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: You turn it back or not?
MR. GUIBERT de BRUET: Likewise, the Tribunal has addressed my preliminary questions, so I think we can expedite things further.
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Do my co-arbitrators have questions?
It's not the case.
Then I would like, Mr. Gligor, to thank you for your testimony.
We may now introduce a new break. We have never had so many breaks, but I suggest to have one, but shorter.
And we will start already with the examination of Mrs. Lorincz. We will certainly have the time to start with the direct; could have part of the cross, depending--who will make the cross?
DR. HEISKANEN: It will be Ms. de Germiny.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So ten minutes' break.
(Brief recess.)
ELENA LORINCZ, CLAIMANTS' WITNESS, CALLED
PRESIDENT TERCIER: So, we may proceed.
Good afternoon, Ms. Lorincz. I welcome you
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in this procedure. In your Witness Statement, the First Witness Statement, you made the same statement than your predecessor, "I anticipate that if called, to provide oral testimony; however, I will do so in Romanian."
Am I right? You would like to make your testimony in Romanian?
THE WITNESS: Indeed. My written statement was in English, but the oral statement will be in Romanian.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good.
You will be heard in this proceeding as a witness. I would like to introduce you to the Members of the Tribunal. On my left-hand side is Professor Horatio Grigera Naón; and, on my right-hand side, is Professor Zachary Douglas. My name is Pierre Tercier, and we have the Secretary and the Assistant to the Tribunal on my right. You certainly imagine who are legal persons on each side of the room.
You will be heard as a witness. I would like to invite you to read aloud the Declaration that is on your table.
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THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare upon my honor and conscience that I shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. You have prepared for this proceeding two Witness Statements, the first dated the 30th of June 2017, and the second, the 30th of October 2018.
Have you these documents in front of you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Can you confirm the content of these two documents, or do you wish to make some amendments, some amendment?
THE WITNESS: These are my statements, indeed, and I don't want to make any amendments to my statements.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. You also know that this is now your testimony and that the procedure will be the following after one or two questions that I will put to you.
Counsel for Claimants will make the direct, then we will have a cross-examination, and then a redirect, the Tribunal having the right to ask you
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questions whenever it feels opportune to do that.
It's clear?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Two rules to have a clear situation: First, your testimony will be in the Transcript, so avoid to speak at the same time as the speaker that have started.
And the second, because there are translation, we need always to have three or four seconds before an answer respectively a question.
It's clear?
A. Yes.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I understand that "da" should mean "yes."
(Laughter.)
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Now, my first question to you is just in the way of introduction, if you could introduce yourself, and in particular the role that you played during the period that we are, of course, interested in. Please.
THE WITNESS: I am the Community Relations Director of Rosia Montana Gold Corporation.
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As a director of the Community Relations Department, my role was to implement and to put in place all the community-relations program of the Company, to implement also--and the actions planned for relocation and resettlement, to relate with the entire local community and the communities around the Project Areas, with the local authorities, the counties authorities, to interact with the representatives of the churches and all the other stakeholders in the Project Area.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. When did you start working for RMGC?
THE WITNESS: I started working for RMGC in 2002.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. And having been--you're currently been the Director, so you climbed different steps.
THE WITNESS: I started in 2002. When I joined the Company, I was hired as a building engineer. My role at the beginning was to make an inventory and measure the properties within the footprint of the Project and present to the community
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the Resettlement and Relocation Plan, to speak about the boundaries of the Project and the Company programs. In 2004, I became the Coordinator of the Cadaster and Topography Department, so I was coordinator.
And, in 2008, I became a manager within the Community Relations Department.
And since June 2009, I have been the Community Relations Director. Throughout this period, ever since I started, I have worked within the Community Relations Department.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. And what is now your position? You're still doing the same activity?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. What has been your education? Can you just tell us?
THE WITNESS: I am a building engineer. I graduated the hydrotechnical studies faculty within the University of Timisoara. Sanitary engineering and environmental protection section, which involved mainly environmental and social studies.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good.
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My second question or set of questions is if you can describe in very broad terms the process followed for the preparation of your two Witness Statements. How you came to it, how it had been made, your Witness Statement, your document.
THE WITNESS: I participated in many meetings with counsels, countless meetings. After that, the statement was written, I made comments to what was written there that I forwarded to the counsels. Then I received the amended versions. And what I have here in front of me is the statement that I recognized as totally my own.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: You know sufficiently English to confirm that it is really the expression of your testimony.
THE WITNESS: I know some English. I can confirm this is my statement. I'm sorry I can't use English verbally. I mean, I'm not so fluent in English, but, indeed, I understand English very well.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: It was a question. It was not a reproach.
Good. We can now turn to...
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: All right. Thank you very much.
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Ms. de Germiny, you start.
Just for you, I don't know if you can do it before today, if not, if you can tell us approximately when you should quickly interrupt.
MS. de GERMINY: Let's see how far we get, but I don't think we'll be finishing tonight.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: My question was for to decide where it would be realizable to stop.
MS. de GERMINY: All right.
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MS. de GERMINY: Mr. President, I think this would be a good place to break.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much.
Ms. Lorincz, you are under testimony. It means that as long as your testimony is not over, you have not the right to have any contact with a representative or counsel from Claimant, and we trust that you will, of course, comply with this duty.
It's clear for you? It's not because we mistrust you, it is a rule that is applicable to everyone, okay? Good.
So, I would like to have one or two points before we leave especially for the organization of today--of tomorrow. The first point I would like to have the time, the result.
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: In total or--
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Total, I think.
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: So, totals are Claimants have 26 hours and 53 minutes left; Respondent has 18 hours and 7 minutes left.
The Tribunal, 3 hours and 9 minutes.
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. Okay. You will receive it in writing.
Second point, it is a question of the organization for tomorrow. We have now the timing, a more precise timing or even very precise timing. We will start in any case with Mrs. Lorincz tomorrow morning at 9:00. We will go through the second part of the cross-examination, and then the redirect, that apparently will be around 20 minutes. Then we will have Mr. Găman, the examination of Mr. Găman should last approximately 2 hours and the 10 minutes, and then we will have direct and redirect. According to the program then we will have Mr. Ariton, again 2 hours and 10 minutes, Mr. Bode will only be heard next week. Mr. Jurca in any case could be heard 1 hour and 10 minutes, and what I'm wondering is whether we could think of examining the mining Ms. Șerban because it's not a long one, that is 40 minutes for cross.
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: Yeah, perhaps--sorry, I have been doing the numbers and perhaps it's more realistic to do Ms. Șerban instead of Mr. Ariton tomorrow so that we finish with--
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: So, your proposal is to start in any case with Mr. Găman, then?
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: So, tomorrow we continue with Ms. Lorincz, and Mr. Găman.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yeah.
SECRETARY MARZAL YETANO: Then either Mr. Ariton or Ms. Șerban, but depending on the time that is left.
I have to schedule Ms. Șerban back for Monday.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So, the proposal of our Secretary is to have Ms. Șerban tomorrow and Mr. Ariton only on Monday. What is your position, Claimant?
MR. GREENWALD: One thing is those times that were indicated were indicative for cross-examination, I think we said that a couple of times, so one question obviously is how long we go with Ms. Lorincz and where that ends--where we are in the day. I think that it may be a few hours with Mr. Găman, and then the question is what would be next.
MR. LEW: I think as Mr. Greenwald said, the
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times were estimates. I think we may end up going longer with Mr. Găman and less time with Mr. Ariton. It's just a guess, frankly.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Of course.
MR. LEW: But I think that those times are likely not to be precise as given, and that we're likely to spend more time with Mr. Găman and less time with Mr. Ariton. So, it's certainly--
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay.
MR. LEW: --possible that we could finish, depending on how long Mr. Găman goes, we could finish with Mr. Ariton tomorrow.
PRESIDENT TERCIER: He's available?
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes, they're available. The question is who should be available tomorrow. Maybe the Claimants could give an indication whether they think that they will reach Ms. Șerban and Mr. Jurca tomorrow.
MR. GREENWALD: Well, that obviously depends on whether Ms. Lorincz goes for a short time in the morning or for not a short time.
DR. HEISKANEN: We have given the indication
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1 last night as to how long we are going to take.
2 PRESIDENT TERCIER: 3 hours-and-a-half.
3 MR. GREENWALD: And where are we?
4 DR. HEISKANEN: I think we did something like
5 30 to 40 minutes.
6 MR. GREENWALD: So if the estimate then were
7 to be that she were to be cross-examined until noon or
8 thereabout maybe a little--
9 DR. HEISKANEN: Maybe a bit earlier.
10 MR. GREENWALD: Maybe a bit earlier. And
11 then redirect. We're getting up on lunchtime, and I
12 think that it would not be realistic at that point to
13 get through more than Mr. Găman and Mr. Ariton. So,
14 the others would then not testify if that were to be
15 the Schedule.
16 PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good.
17 This is the program for tomorrow.
18 Have you another point that you would like to
19 raise on your side?
20 MR. GREENWALD: No.
21 PRESIDENT TERCIER: From your side?
22 DR. HEISKANEN: Nothing from us,
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1 Mr. President.
2 PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you. In that case
3 I would like to wish you all a very pleasant evening.
4 Thank you very much.
5 (Whereupon, at 6:04 p.m., the Hearing was
6 adjourned until 9:00 a.m. the following day.)
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I, David A. Kasdan, RDR-CRR, Court Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were stenographically recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewritten form by computer-assisted transcription under my direction and supervision; and that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action in this proceeding, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this litigation.
Signature
DAVID A. KASDAN
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I, Margie Dauster, RMR-CRR, Court Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were stenographically recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewritten form by computer-assisted transcription under my direction and supervision; and that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action in this proceeding, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this litigation.
Signature
MARGIE DAUSTER